We recently re-watched the 2010 World Series (it never gets old) and it got me thinking about where all those players are now so I thought I'd do a post about it.
We'll start with the pitchers (11) and go in alphabetical order. Active, under-contract players in the majors are in bold. Giants in italicized bold.
Jeremy Affeldt: retired at the end of the 2015 season.
Madison Bumgarner: signed through 2017 with options for '18 and '19.
Matt Cain: signed through 2017 with an option for '18.
Santiago Casilla: signed for 2016, eligible for free agency in '17.
Tim Lincecum: a free agent.
Javier Lopez: signed for 2016, eligible for free agency in '17.
Guillermo Mota: retired 2014.
Ramon Ramirez: a free agent.
Sergio Romo: signed for 2016, eligible for free agency in '17.
Jonathan Sanchez: a free agent.
Brian Wilson: a free agent.
There were only two catchers, and one played every inning of that post-season.
Buster Posey: signed through 2020.
Eli Whiteside: retired 2015, still with the organization as a bullpen coach.
Not one of the seven infielders are still playing on the team although one returned, memorably, for the 2014 post-season.
Mike Fontenot: a free agent.
Aubrey Huff: retired 2014.
Travis Ishikawa: a free agent.
Edgar Renteria: retired 2013
Freddy Sanchez: a free agent--has not officially retired.
Pablo Sandoval: on the Boston Red Sox.
Juan Uribe: a free agent.
The same is true for the five outfielders--none are playing with the Giants.
Pat Burrell: retired 2012, still with the organization as a scout.
Cody Ross: a free agent.
Aaron Rowand: retired as a player but coaching in the White Sox system.
Nate Schierholtz: currently in the NPB with the Hiroshima Carp.
Andres Torres: opted out of his 2014 contract with Boston, presumably a free agent.
There you have it. Of the 25 guys who won the title in 2010 only SIX are still on the team's active roster. Seven have retired and a few more are most likely done as players. We'll probably see Juan Uribe and Cody Ross on the diamond somewhere in 2016. Who knows about the rest?
The one glaring omission is of course Tim Lincecum. He was so awesome then it is hard to reconcile that with his uneven performances since and equally hard to picture him in anything but a Giants uniform. Otherwise I'm pretty happy about the guys the Giants held on to!
Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday. I hope all of you have a great time celebrating. I am certainly thankful for much in my life. As always, I appreciate all the readers, lurkers, commenters, and contributors here at RMC. It's great to know you are out there and I value all of your contributions to the site. Thanks for sticking around.
GO GIANTS!
--M.C.
p.s. Baseball-Reference let me know that my sponsoring of Matt Duffy's page expires in a month. I think it was thirty bucks last year. Now they want three hundred! Way to go, Duff-man. Play like a star and you get noticed. Y'all will have to help me pick a new kid to sponsor.
38 comments:
Dave Roberts is the new Dodgers manager. He spent his last two seasons with the Giants. Probably a good move, Roberts seems to be well-respected. He's an outfielder, of course, which makes me question the move. I think catchers make the best managers (followed by middle infielders). It was obvious Mattingly's time was up when they lost in the playoffs. I wonder how much rope the FO will give Roberts. Being that he's a local boy (raised in SD, went to UCLA) and had a stint wearing the blue I think they might be patient. He's only 43 and has exactly one game of managerial experience. He's also only their 10th manager since moving to LA (Giants have had 16).
Apparently Aubrey Huff is interested in playing again: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/11/aubrey-huff-comeback-2016.html.
I think of catchers as natural choices for managers, too, but I wonder if there's any good evidence for that, given the changes in managerial duties as specialized coaches have proliferated, sabermetrics have seeped into decision-making, players have emerged from pre-Flood peonage to become far better paid than managers (or can reasonably hope for that), and personnel choices rest with an FO rather than with a manager + owner pair. More of managing seems to me, nowadays, to involve the handling of pitchers, as five-man rotations and newly engorged bullpens have become the norm, and interpersonal diplomacy with multicultural, privileged players; and in both of these areas,mI guess that ex-catchers have some advantage.
This topic could make for an intriguing study, maybe not for a very wide audience, though.
" . . . maybe not for a very wide audience . . . "
LOL!
Good thing RMC is a baseball-nerd haven. :-)
Catchers have been becoming managers for a long time, from Connie Mack to Joe Torre to Bruce Bochy to Mike Matheny.
Here are some articles I found that cover this phenomenon, the first two are particularly good as it named catchers in dugouts at that time of the article:
http://m.mlb.com/news/article/40183332/
http://www.i70baseball.com/2014/04/10/catchers-as-managers/
http://jugssports.com/catchers-make-the-best-managers-.-.-.maybe
http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/006003.php
However, that third one noted a study that found that in the history of baseball, catchers had the worse record of any position. And the fourth link appears to have that study.
I would note here that based on his career numbers, Bochy is a barely .500 manager. That's because he had to manage the Padres, which torn down each team he built up to competitive status, wasting his ability to win one-run games. And as the 4th link's comments noted (which I just added there, maybe, having problems), they brought up valid questions regarding how good the study was.
Well, LA's record is skewed by Alston and Lasorda managing for such long stretches. If we take it from when Lasorda had his first full season managing in 1977, the Dodgers have had 8 (Roberts will be 9th) and the Giants have had 9. And I would bet on Bochy lasting longer than Roberts at this job.
Thanks for the rundown on the players, I found it very interesting.
Not sure, but I recall news somewhere that Burrell left our scouting ranks this season. Ah, here it is: http://www.knbr.com/2015/06/24/burrell-retires-as-special-assignment-scout-for-giants/
Was very abrupt, so I hope everything is OK for him and his family.
I would not bet against Lincecum returning, but I would not be surprised if another team signs him. He clearly wants to become a starting pitcher again, and I think opportunity will guide him more than money or familiarity/comfort. I don't expect that opportunity to be here at the moment, as the Giants are planning on picking up two SP, which makes Heston our long reliever/spot starter, so unless Lincecum wants to be that upgrade in the bullpen that Bochy noted was on his wish list, he's probably gone.
But if the Giants strike out again in signing that co-ace to go with Bumgarner, he might be willing to come back and compete with Heston for the last spot in the rotation, with the fallback position being that he takes on the 2015 Vogelsong role.
Well there goes my perfectly good theory about catchers! :-)
I think it might be the case that catchers spent much of their careers "running" games and "handling" pitchers so the transition to coach/manager was a natural. I imagine there are plenty of smart position players and pitchers who have the requisite skills to be a manager, it's just that the catchers spent more time "in the mix" with the coaching staff so they were perceived as better prepared for the job.
The problem with all historical studies is that the game was really different before division play, free agency, and specialization. Not to mention TV and the big bucks. There is such a thing as a post-season "tournament" today that did not exist before 1969 and we've seen how much managing gets squeezed into that small sample. And of course the integration and internationalization of the game requires that "interpersonal diplomacy" as campanari said. That was not an issue in the old days. What's remarkable to me is that catchers are such a small pool to draw from and yet so many go into coaching and managing, percentage-wise. One would expect 8/9 of all managers to be non-catchers if all players possessed equal ability and desire to manage. Actually there are more pitchers on a team so you'd think there be more pitcher-managers like Craig and Lasorda.
I'm also biased toward catchers (duh!) and middle infielders as the guys who made their mark managing the modern game like Torre (C), LaRussa (MI), Leyland (MI), Cox (MI), Sparky (2B), Sciosia (C), and now Ned Yost (C). I know there are good managers, guys like Lou Piniella and Terry Francona who were OF/1B types, but I when I think of managing I think about a guy "close" to the action.
What started this was thinking about Dave Roberts. I must say it is bold to hire a rookie to run a billion-dollar club. But it's an inspired pick--I always thought he was a sharp guy. What really matters is how quickly he learns from his mistakes and how willing he is to evolve. This is why I don't like Baker--he never varies and sticks to his guns no matter what. The game is too fast today and organizations have to be really adaptable, you can't have stubborn people running the show.
Coaching Staff of the 2030 World Series-Winning SF Giants 2030 (NL MVP - Lucius Fox):
Manager - Buster Posey
Bench Coach - Ron Wotus (having been passed up for a Managerial job an additional 35 times by multiple Teams, including the Giants twice)
1B Coach - Gregor Blanco
3B Coach - Hunter Pence
Pitching Coach - Matt Cain
Bullpen Coach - Sergio Romo
Where's the "like" button when you need it? F'ing hilarious Ron.
Is it too soon to wish a Happy Festivus to all? Consider it done.
There goes Jordan Zimmerman.
Why does our name never come up in connection with Jason Heyward? He would be a great addition. If we are really thinking about Cespedes, we should also be thinking about Heyward.
Personally, I think that we are preparing to do our usual number of giving the appearance of going after big-time Pitchers, but not making any deals. I just don't see us giving any of these guys the enormous, salary structure-busting Contracts that they're looking for. And, there are always Teams like LAD, LAA, Texas, CHC, NYY, & Boston who will. So, there it goes again.
And, do we really want Greinke for $30M per year on a roster with Posey & Cain making $21-ish per year who will soon be joined by Bumgarner making $25-ish per year? Aside from tieing up nearly $100M per year for 4 players, doesn't that throw the whole structure out-of-whack? Hope that Greinke ends up in the AL - I don't think that he's coming to SF.
I didn't care much about getting Zimmerman once I learned that he had TJS before, recovery after the first one is a proven success (but not guaranteed), but recovery after the second one is pretty depressing, hence Brian Wilson's comments right after he announced he was getting his second one, about beating the odds. I don't want to risk $100M+ on any pitcher who could be gone in an instant related to a pitching injury.
We don't need more offense (though I would love his defense), so I'm glad we are not chasing Heyward. We don't have all the money in the world. Basically a Greinke would empty our war chest, unless they change their minds and go into the penalty box again regarding payroll. A Heyward and a Leake would put us right at the edge of the penalty, meaning we might be over, or would go over if we acquired anybody mid-season.
As much as I want Greinke, we aren't outbidding LA for him, I don't see how they can let him go, much like how we had to resign Huff, as there is no other way to reduplicate what they provided the year before other than re-signing him and hoping he produces again. He's just doing this to get a bigger contract and more years from LA, and he'll probably get it from LA.
I personally would be happy to get Leake and take a chance on a guy looking for a rebuild value year, like Fister or even Lincecum, if he has a good workout. Lincecum can be good enough to be our 5th starter if he's healthy.
And Bumgarner is signed to 2019, so it's still five more seasons before we need to pay him that kind of money (and by then, it'll probably be $30-35M per season, with inflation).
This is probably the first time ever that Zack Greinke's accomplishments in 2015 (statistically, the best season in about 40 years) are compared to Aubrey Huff's accomplishments in 2010 (a decent year for a slugging 1B). Interesting comparison.
I don't see Greinke's return to LAD as a slam dunk. There are other Teams who would eagerly out-bid LAD.
Bumgarner's deal should be renegotiated after 2017 (for market value, which will probably be around $25-28M). No sense ever letting him test the waters.
Pitching-wise, we need more than Leake & a prayer. Lincecum's minor league deal will be a speck on the cost analysis chart, so that's worth doing, but we need someone of the Fister variety.
I'm all for getting one of the best OF gloves in the game. He's becoming a good hitter, too. People thought that he'd instantly do that in 2010, but Buster out-played him & got the Rookie-of-the-Year. But, after a few years, Heyward is now a legit multi-tooled player.
Price to Boston. No surprise, there. Greinke now likelier to end up on NYY?
So it looks to me like Boston's salary was $153 million for 10 guys out of a 40 man roster. Now they have added Chris Young at $13 million and David Price at $30 million. So $196 million for 14/40 of a roster. Bet they're loving that Pablo deal now!
Sorry - 12 guys before, now 14.
I like Heyward, he's an excellent player, but I'll stick with my usual on long-term deals for OFs. Pence is one of those fine all-rounders, and he's paid off handsomely, but he was also out all season with injuries. He's got three more years on the books so I don't expect the Giants to chase a fancy FA. If you are gonna go for the "salary structure-busting" deal it has to be for starting pitching, right? Heyward is going to get $20M+/season, maybe $25M+, don't you think? So far all the predictions for the market are too low--guys are getting even more. Heyward will get a primo payday much like Price. Greinke, now that Price has $30M/season, is going to get at least that much, but maybe not for as long. Either way I think that's too rich for Evans and Co.
I've heard the Doug Fister talk. Could be a great bargain compared to the others, eh? I guess I can live with not getting my precious shiny bauble. Just have to count on Matt Cain rediscovering his mojo. And maybe a little Leake thrown in.
The Giants have a great core with the infield and Buster and Pence. Great lineup, solid D. Good bullpen depth, need a lefty, but don't all teams need more lefties? Ace pitcher with Bum, just have to fatten that ro' for the long haul. When are the youngsters ready to contribute?
Oh and let's not forget rehab/scrap heap/Evans-is-a-genius pickup Kyle Blanks. When he hits the game-winning homer in the LCS all the talking heads will shit their collective pants. :-)
Although the pundits are predicting something like Mark, I'm not sure that I understand why Justin Heyward justifies such a massive Contract. His body-of-work to-date doesn't bowl you over. His 2015 was good, but he didn't drive in many runs. The defense & speed part are great tools, though. On the other hand, we are living in a world in which Jacoby Ellsbury makes $21M.
The latest article claims that we & LAD are the 'finalists' for Greinke. We've all seen this tune before: a 'mystery Team' will suddenly emerge - usually LAA or Texas. Still don't think that we're going to get into something that long-term & that rich.
Exactly. If Ellsbury got that, Heyward will do better. He's young--that's the thing with Heyward. And like a lot of all-rounders the numbers aren't eye-popping until you look at the overall picture. But he's young, only 26, and has all that big-league time under him including post-season. He'd be a great addition to any team. (Would you move Pence to left if you got Heyward?) FanGraphs does their usual over-the-top look at his value if you've got the time to kill!
Barry Bonds to the FloMars?
Wow. No beef with Bam-Bam, but you have to find a way to keep no. 25 around. He knows more than anyone about hitting. Maybe when they finally get around to retiring his number he'll be back. Assuming he goes to Florida at all, that is.
'Mystery Team Alert': all of the usual suspects now being mentioned + St. Louis + Washington. We're not getting Greinke (or Cueto).
One less thing for Ron to worry about: Nori Aoki to sign with Mariners. http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/12/mariners-to-sign-nori-aoki.html
Since I watch plenty of Mariners' games on local TV here, I'll still get to watch a lot of Nori, but without any emotional investment! Fine w/ me.
What has Joe Panik done to deserve all of this talk about trades? The only conceivable way that I can imagine that the Giants would truly consider this would be if they are going to sign Zobrist (which I think is very unlikely). Kelby was a nice player for a few months & a useful utility guy, but he's no Joe Panik (especially in the field).
The clock is ticking on Greinke ... still think that it will be the 'Mystery Team'.
Joe Panik hasn't "done" anything. He's young and studly and so talking heads want to talk about him so they make up possible trade scenarios. The Giants are too smart to trade young, cost-controlled stars. And Kelby will be next year's Joaquin Arias, just younger and studlier.
Giants dump Petit - that sucks. His flexibility made him very valuable. His occasional studly performances were impressive.
Saw that coming. Roster space crunch. You have to lose quality players to keep or obtain quality players. Petit certainly had some amazing moments as a Giants player. I hope he lands a spot somewhere. He's had two solid seasons back-to-back after that awesome September in 2013. And of course his 2014 post-season was epic. Did you know he pitched for Oaxaca in the Mexican League? Sanchez, on the other hand, was on a downward trend and the injuries piled up in almost absurd fashion. I love the kid and really wanted to see him stick. Maybe he'll sign a minor-league deal with the Giants.
Should we be thinking about the Leake / Maeda combo? Seems like a good one. Just announced that Maeda will be posted.
Is the posting system for NPB players as byzantine as the KBL scheme?
I think it is derived from NPB. As I understand it (which is probably not very well) teams have to bid, the Hiroshima Carp (in this case) have to decide to accept the highest bid and then the player, or his agent, has to negotiate with the team like any other free agent. Hiroshima residents, for what it is worth, feel that Maeda has contributed to Hiroshima, so now they feel good about him challenging the major leagues. At least the one's they interviewed on tv.
WTF?
I guess that shows that what you read before a deal is done is speculation, nothing more. What I have been concerned with, from several articles, is that the Giants, supposedly front-of-the-race bidders for Greinke, seemed to think of everyone else as what-happens-if-they-don't-get-Greinke. Which, considering what I just said about how you shouldn't read anything into rumors, makes no sense. However, it disquiets me. The Giants clearly have several starting pitching slots to fill. Wasn't last year an example of throwing a lot of money at Lester and then having essentially no back-up plan? Shouldn't Leake be signed now if the Giants were interested in him in addition to a front line starter? Logic dictates that the Giants take care of things better than that - they have plans, back up plans and back ups to their back ups. But it's damn hard to tell from what little you hear.
On a related note, how many other jobs (besides being a sports columnist) can you just pull stuff out of your ass with no regards to whether or not you get it right and be paid for it? What if engineers operated that way?
Mixed feelings about Greinke to Arizona: LA lots weaker without him (good!) but more likely to compete with us for whoever might be the next best bet along the line: Cueto? Samardzija? Kazmir? The Giants lose an opportunity but avoid a possible grave financial burden. We might be able to get a mix of pitching and OF that will serve us better than Greinke and Impoverishment. We have to face a stronger Arizona team, but then, so does LA, to the same extent.
Fuck Zack Greinke. I am grateful that the Giants didn't pay that kind of money for him. That contract is ridiculous & shameful.
Now, though, the Giants need to get to work & do so with haste. Sign Leake, for Gods' sake, & go for Alex Gordon, too. Then, give a REAL go for Maeda. This could still be a formidable rotation.
Alternatively, do nothing, pout out lost opportunities, & just count their money ... kind of like last year. Crappy alternative - Giants' fans deserve better.
Holy shit! I go skiing one day and the Giants spend $130M. Yikes. This makes the Samardzija deal look like a bargain. You have to love the organization's commitment to improving the pitching. It might not work but they are reasonable gambles, hard to argue with, and have a good chance of making a big impact. The Giants need bookends for Bumgarner and it's still a question what guys like Peavy and Cain have left. (This makes the Petit role a wide-open race. I'll put money on Timmy.)
But Cueto is a flashy move. I'm starting to like it. I had no idea it was coming.
The Giants went into the payroll penalty in 2015, so I'm not sure where all the counting the money comes in.
And the only reason we weren't in the playoffs in 2015 was mainly due to injuries, in particular, I would name in order, Pence, Panik, Belt, Aoki, most of whom were not available the last couple of months of the season, when we were still in contention or at least near enough to still challenge LA.
Our offense hummed when we had our guys in there. We were 34-17 with Pence in the lineup, averaged 5.5 runs scored in his first stint, which had Aoki leading off, then 5.0 runs scored in his second stint, which had Aoki missing for around half the games (plus he was not the same after returning; Blanco and Maxwell weren't that good then either), and lost Panik midway, replaced by Adrianza, plus Pagan was never effective. Still averaged 5.0 runs with three non-producing parts of the lineup.
Even with our poor rotation, we would win a lot of games averaging near 5.0 runs per game last season. But injuries so random and none considered a recurring one, and yet it stopped our offense.
So I'm not sure about all the bellyaching, especially after 3 in 5. The Giants went beyond the penalty threshold, so they were certainly paying a lot of people a lot of money. They were prepared to spend more, but Lester had a bond with the other GM. They put together a team that had enough fail safes and risk mitigation that we were very close for nearly 5 months, mixing and matching, then traded for Leake and Byrd to boost the reserves, until all the injuries caught up with us and overwhelmed the offense. Short of hiring someone to whack Kershaw or Greinke in the knees, I'm not sure what else one can reasonably ask the Giants to have done last season.
Worse, had they spent more money last off-season, we most probably would have ended up with Shield in the rotation, instead of Samardzija or Cueto. Or paying Lester an even more uglier amount of money.
In any case, they stepped up this off-season. They are right at the penalty threshold, and ready for b'ar. I assume they will pay the penalty if they need to mid-season or perhaps engineer a trade where the other team absorbs salary or the player is still paid lowly (last non-arb season).
Unless LA trades their young stars (doubtful, that is what the new GM has been building up for), their big upgrade, which nobody has been mentioning, is Urias, who is only 19 YO but could be joining their rotation within the first half of the 2016 season, so they only need to stay in the hunt early on before kicking in turbo with Urias, who has dominated every level where he has pitched a significant number of games, even though he has been 6+ years younger the average age of the league. He is Greinke's replacement at some point.
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